BOB BELDEN : Perfect Machine, the final record of the trilogy, has an interesting cover. Do you think the covers – that was just Columbia's art department?

BILL LASWELL : No, no. We were contracting people again. Tony Meilandt and Herbie being conscious of it. Columbia never picked anything. It was more from our side, especially Tony Meilandt and Herbie, tracking down computer people. We were stressing the idea something modern or ultra modern. Columbia had no say in the cover art.

BOB BELDEN : So the personnel on, let's see here, on Sound System is so much more – there are more players on that record.

BILL LASWELL : More than Future Shock.

BOB BELDEN : And also more than Perfect Machine.

BILL LASWELL : Perfect Machine was really minimalized. It was almost approaching a techno, an early techno concept which was not so much players, but just ideas kind of manipulating ways to present the ideas technically.

BOB BELDEN : So Herbie, you feel, eventually got into it, or he sort of drifted away from it?

BILL LASWELL : From the whole thing, or…

BOB BELDEN : From the concept.

BILL LASWELL : I'm not sure where he stands on it. I know that the initial records just honestly were over his head and he didn’t know what we were really doing. And with the initial success of the single, then he became obviously attracted to his own success. And became involved. And then Sound System happened so quickly, bringing in a lot of people. He was much more involved in it. I think the last record, less involved, because he approached it – it evolved into something a bit more technical. It was copied a lot. Even Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, and Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top, who told me that he was very influenced by Sound System for just the idea of sampling and stabs of sounds and things. A lot of people did sort of emulate it. But no one copied exactly the direction. It's kind of a unique period in a way. I remember it pretty clearly, but -

BOB BELDEN : And those records, put you on the map, so to speak?

BILL LASWELL : Well, Future Shock - "Rockit" – put me on the map, but it's not a map that I really care to be on. I just think it was a freak record and everybody got work out of it. I didn't, we never thought of it as an achievement. It was fun. It was an experiment. And I was hoping to get on to hopefully working with great musicians after that instead of dabbling with concepts. Like Tony Williams or people like that.

BOB BELDEN : So today, this particular time period, amongst the many things you've done on your own label and for other people, you did Miles Davis' Panthalassa, which was funny. Because, critics – I call them woodpeckers, and specific ones that think that they know it all I call Mr. Peabodies.

BILL LASWELL : When I heard it, I knew Downbeat gave it a two-star review, which I actually saved. But I always saw it as that's the opening. He opened the door and nobody had any sense to know that that was an opening. He just kept waiting for something to happen and it has already happened. No one respected that that was the way into something unique.

BOB BELDEN : What is your survey of what somebody would call a "scene" today?

BILL LASWELL : A scene today. I think it's probably divided up into different sort of societies like everything else gets done. Internationally if you look at an overview, I prefer to step way back from it and try to get an overview and say, "Well, we know that in Tokyo there is this going on and in Barcelona there is a drum and bass scene. Rio there is a possibility of hip hop merging with metal, with tribal." And if you step far back enough from it, you just get the concept that it's just all sound and I don’t look at New York for a scene because I mean I haven't sort of followed it. I just try to move back as far back as possible and try to get as big an overview as possible.

BILL LASWELL : But I don't follow that so much. I'm I mean I try to go to, if I go to Morocco I always hear a lot of music, and West Africa, I hear a lot of music. And China or Japan and recently in Brazil, there is a lot of music. I don't try to group it you know the way people do other kinds of societies or religions or followings. I just try to keep it open.

BOB BELDEN : Well, Americans tend to look with disdain at other cultures, thinking "Hey, ours is the best culture."

BILL LASWELL : There is no culture here. This is just advertising and manipulation of whatever is available that someone can sell. And it's all influenced by endless outer and international references. So it's just business here. But you can't group things. You can't catalog always and break things down and decipher and decode and expect to come out with a result. I think it's just kind of an ocean of possibilities always. And it you look at it from far enough back – and from more of a far-back perspective, it's just a world of sound. It's never jaded. It's never old. It's never new. It's never unheard. It's never unexpected. It's just – and been done before – it's just all there and evolving as it goes, endlessly. It's down to the people that make the discoveries. When someone makes a discovery, then they label something new. But that's just based on the limitations of their travel and their experience.

BOB BELDEN : Well, I know at the festivals, on or two that I've actually gone to recently, there is so much life and excitement from bands from other places.

BILL LASWELL : There is. Absolutely, and there always has been. And there always will be as long as it’s possible to do it, there will be. It’s a new time in terms of how people are going to sell music and how they’re going to get paid. And how they’re going to evolve and major labels run by people with brains that connect to just the repetition of xeroxing what happened before, is no longer relevant. I think we're definitely in a new time, and so there is a revolution going on now in technology that will help artists. If artists are willing to learn and take some risk, it's a new time for everybody.

BOB BELDEN : The quicker and faster and more direct that you can get the money into your pocket --

BILL LASWELL : And that can happen, believe me. I mean with certain down-loadable companies and with virtual companies and everything from MP-3, A&B-3, Liquid Audio – these are all futuristic ways to archive music, get paid for music, make sure it exists. Know that you’re collecting your publishing and not feel as though you're being pimped by some corporation for your art and they own it on top of it.

BOB BELDEN : Now you know what Sonny Rollin's quote was, "The music business is second only to boxing" in terms of just crap.

BILL LASWELL : It's bad. But there are really alternatives now. And people just have to be patient and find the connections. That's what I've been doing in the last few months is aligning with different virtual companies and downloadable companies to try and create catalogs for people and connect people who need money with companies that have money. Because those companies have much more money than record companies.

BOB BELDEN : And it all comes right to you. None of this 12% of retail.

BILL LASWELL : Exactly. It's a direct thing.

BOB BELDEN : I mean, the Japanese – I record for Toshiba on occasion. They've got a great royalty deal. And it's based on your advance. So if you have a low advance, you recoup fast and you make some money.

BILL LASWELL : Right. But it's definitely a new time. I have really strong contracts in this area. I've been hired by a few people to find catalogs and products from three different downloadable and virtual companies, that all are funded with immense amounts of money.

BOB BELDEN : Deep emotion. It sort of has left our psyche. Because if you can't get people to react to it then it's not doing it's job. I don’t know how you feel about it, but I think music should have a power over people.

BILL LASWELL : I remember a time when it did, so I haven't lost track of that. To me it was devastating. It was just your whole life and I don't know if we can get back to that but we can certainly apply that memory to what's going on.

BOB BELDEN : It brought us to where we are today.

BILL LASWELL : But I'm optimistic now about things. Just try to push people. Everyone gets scared about their survival and their existence. And everyone gets complacent but I think if – money seems to be the trigger that kind of wakes people up and reminds them that they can be who they are and – I just think if we can find ways to pay people to wake up.

But there is a serious thing. I mean a lot of jazz education which is essentially "Don't do that. Don’t do that. It's violation of the scale rule." I was a comp major so I was checking out everything, as well as jazz. And Kitaro, which is totally different. That's when I realized other cultures. I mean Brazilian music, but the Brazilian music from Bahia. That’s the heavy rhythm stuff.

BOB BELDEN : I figure if you can't hear it, it has no meaning for you.

BILL LASWELL : It's very humorous and at least that's the right attitude to have about it. Otherwise it would drive you crazy. You got to find your own thing with people who have integrity and you can relate to. Otherwise, it's like LA – you’re lost. It's all lies.

interview from July 29, 1999 1